Kickstarter-like campaign for incorporating extension functionality?

[LordEntrails]

I don't get how this could work. I understand the desire, I don't understand the practicality of how it would be done.

If the money is simply to encourage SW to incorporate certain extensions into the base, then it adds nothing to the developer resources. i.e. I'm sure the SW devs are fully engaged with what they have already determined are priorities.

If the money is to buy existing extensions from community devs, then I would suspect in most cases the code would still need to be re-written to be compliant with SW standards. And honestly once an idea is known along with a good solution, I don't think you are saving much time from re-developing new code to perform a similar function. See above on developer resources.

If the idea is to use KS to fund new SW developers, that's not a very stable income for hiring purposes. i.e. how long would a KS be able to fund a developer for? I don't know what the jo b description would entail, but according to Google, the average S/W developer salary in the US is $100 - 130k. Add benefits, taxes, and employment overhead, you need to add 25-40%. And then you need to account for managing that employee, So Doug or John spends less time developing and more time managing.

Now, if the money were to pay for some consultant to work with SW and the community devs to develop a framework for community extensions or to enhance documentations or some other project/task-based effort, that might (maybe) work if SW were committed to such an idea. And the idea and project was well defined with measurable objectives and a clear mandate. But note, experienced consultants are generally more expensive than software developers (like $200-300 per hour).

Or the final way to look at this, do you all really think this KS could raise in excess of $200,000 USD? (Don't forget KS fees and costs).

[snupy]

I don't get how this could work. I understand the desire, I don't understand the practicality of how it would be done.

Fair.

If the money is simply to encourage SW to incorporate certain extensions into the base, then it adds nothing to the developer resources. i.e. I'm sure the SW devs are fully engaged with what they have already determined are priorities.

Yes, I guess my case rests on the fact that SW developers could find time to allocate to funded projects and/or shift their priorities in case of successful kickstarter. That may or may not be the case.

From what I have seen on the forum, SW replies tend to be on the line of "we are not going to do that because we are not sure of the economic return" rather than we think that's useless and there's no reason to do it. A successful kickstarter would send quite a strong signal about what users (or at least users willing to put their money where their words are) care about, and I've seen many posts here quite critical of the current development directions, for example the problems with extensions and the fact that not so many people care about 2.5D. In short, I like to believe that SW ideas on what represents a priority are not immovable, but need concrete reasons to be moved and I am try to provide a concrete reason.

The only feasible alternative I see is project type work (so not permanently hiring new developers with kickstarter money), similar to the one taking place in adventure/books conversion, but with the aim of coding a specific functionality/porting an extension. Seems doable to me but I may be naive.

What you propose in the last paragraph is a different thing which would also be interesting, but looks like you don't believe it's feasible. My answer to your rhetorical question is just what you would expect it to be.

[snupy]

I quite like this idea as well. A few thoughts that came to my mind when reading through this thread: Namely, how one would decide which feature(s) to kickstart. In my case, I primarily use FGU for PF1e and use LOTS of extensions for that system. The extensions I would like to see supported are likely different than those used by people playing other more popular rulesets. I know that the feature request page exists but I think the scope of said page is a bit too broad in this case as it covers a lot more than just extensions.

Haven't thought this far yet. Probably by users voting, as you say on something less extensive than the feature request page. Then starting the kickstarter (does not have to be exactly that platform) on the top one. Or maybe start the kickstarter for the top say 3. The first one (if any) to be fully funded starts being developed, the other ones are reimbursed (unless more than one thing can be developed simultaneously, which seems unlikely). Once one feature has been implemented reopen the voting and repeat.

Anyway, just what I came out with on the spur of the moment, haven't thought this through carefully.

[LordEntrails]

Yes, I guess my case rests on the fact that SW developers could find time to allocate to funded projects and/or shift their priorities in case of successful kickstarter. That may or may not be the case.

They certainly could. Though not blatantly obvious, they have done so in the past.

From what I have seen on the forum, SW replies tend to be on the line of "we are not going to do that because we are not sure of the economic return" rather than we think that's useless and there's no reason to do it. A successful kickstarter would send quite a strong signal about what users (or at least users willing to put their money where their words are) care about, and I've seen many posts here quite critical of the current development directions, for example the problems with extensions and the fact that not so many people care about 2.5D. In short, I like to believe that SW ideas on what represents a priority are not immovable, but need concrete reasons to be moved and I am try to provide a concrete reason.

That makes sense, i.e. clearly indicating what and how much the community values certain aspects. SW certainly do change their priorities based on feedback. My own current experience which seems to be mimic'd by what we see as users is that SW run using Agile Methodology with planning increments. Typically these increments are quarterly and is where the team reviews the backlog and determines what project they will work on that quarter. It's bad practice (inefficient, demoralizing, etc) to change objectives within an increment. But I expect whenever their next increment is, we see subtle signs of such a shift.

The only feasible alternative I see is project type work (so not permanently hiring new developers with kickstarter money), similar to the one taking place in adventure/books conversion, but with the aim of coding a specific functionality/porting an extension. Seems doable to me but I may be naive.

What you propose in the last paragraph is a different thing which would also be interesting, but looks like you don't believe it's feasible. My answer to your rhetorical question is just what you would expect it to be.

It's not meant in a negative light. I spent a couple decades doing product development process consulting, very similar to what I'm proposing here. So I know its hard to be successful with such projects. The potential is very high, but getting a cohesive team and "user adoption" to be effective is very challenging. Such efforts almost never work when driven either from the top or the users alone. They are most effective when the objectives are clear and everyone understands exactly what will be delivered. And the objectives and deliverables are agreed to be correct. Even more importantly, when everyone throughout the organization believes in the initiative.

It's not impossible for such a project to originate from the user community and be successful, but its seems exceedingly challenging.

But going back to the idea of influencing future efforts, that is certainly achievable and worthwhile.

[Morenu]

OK, maybe not a kickstarter, maybe like a patreon.

I feel like I have seen patreons where once a certain amount of money is brought in they make another "thing". so if only a few subscribers, it may take months, or if there are a lot, it may be 2 a month. So it could be something like any patreon member gets to vote on the next extension picked (with SW deciding what gets on the ballot), an estimate of cost is done (or its done before) and once the goal is hit, the coding can start. it could be handed off to a trusted coder who wants the extra cash, or done in house.

I know I have seen this with web comic authors, 3D printing modelers and map makers.

And the patreon could offer member only sales / give aways / behind the scene things... to different levels.

Or hell, just add 1 crowd sourced addon to the store that can be "bought" and until the goal is hit, no one gets anything, but once its hit, it gets created and it gets added and everyone gets it. essentially thats a kickstarter but no one gets money back if unfunded, not time limitation on time to fund, and everyone gets the product once funded, Oh and no money leaves SW.

I know a lot of people hate subscriptions to play, and I respect SW for that. BUT some us us have adult money and don't mind giving back or paying in to help everyone.

[Ludd_G]

OK, maybe not a kickstarter, maybe like a patreon.

I feel like I have seen patreons where once a certain amount of money is brought in they make another "thing". so if only a few subscribers, it may take months, or if there are a lot, it may be 2 a month. So it could be something like any patreon member gets to vote on the next extension picked (with SW deciding what gets on the ballot), an estimate of cost is done (or its done before) and once the goal is hit, the coding can start. it could be handed off to a trusted coder who wants the extra cash, or done in house.

I know I have seen this with web comic authors, 3D printing modelers and map makers.

And the patreon could offer member only sales / give aways / behind the scene things... to different levels.

Or hell, just add 1 crowd sourced addon to the store that can be "bought" and until the goal is hit, no one gets anything, but once its hit, it gets created and it gets added and everyone gets it. essentially thats a kickstarter but no one gets money back if unfunded, not time limitation on time to fund, and everyone gets the product once funded, Oh and no money leaves SW.

I know a lot of people hate subscriptions to play, and I respect SW for that. BUT some us us have adult money and don't mind giving back or paying in to help everyone.

I like this idea and I would be up for supporting an ongoing patreon, to improve free to all implementation of automation/functionally of the FGU base client.

Cheers,

Simon

[snupy]

@ddavison
I can imagine Smiteworks not wanting to take a definite position on this straight away, but some indication on whether or not they consider something on the lines of what has been discussed feasible would be great.