Ability Score Modification Effects and Attack Rolls for NPCs

[rocketvaultgames]

In D&D 5e, effects like: "STR: -4" work perfectly on PCs as far as I can tell, but for NPCs, they only seem to affect checks and saves.

Is there a way to have them affect Attack Rolls and Spell/Ability Save DCs as well (from the Combat Tracker)?

[Moon Wizard]

For attacks, we have no way of knowing which ability score should be mapped to a given attack roll, as that information is not provided in the attack descriptions. While it's probably usually Strength; it's likely that many low Strength, high Dexterity creatures have essentially finesse for their natural attacks. (Without adding data to every single creature outside of what is provided by the bestiary books.) Unless someone has a definitive ruling from WotC to specify otherwise...

For the spell/ability save DCs, I'll have to look when I get a chance.

Regards,
JPG

[rocketvaultgames]

For attacks, we have no way of knowing which ability score should be mapped to a given attack roll, as that information is not provided in the attack descriptions. While it's probably usually Strength; it's likely that many low Strength, high Dexterity creatures have essentially finesse for their natural attacks. (Without adding data to every single creature outside of what is provided by the bestiary books.) Unless someone has a definitive ruling from WotC to specify otherwise...

For the spell/ability save DCs, I'll have to look when I get a chance.

Regards,
JPG

I'm not sure about a definitive ruling (it might exist), but the total bonus should be calculable based on proficiency bonus plus either STR or DEX modifiers. Named weapons have specific properties from the PHB (and maybe even the Basic Rules) (finesse, thrown, etc.)

For example, the generic "Knight" from the Monster Manual has:

• Greatsword - Melee Weapon Attack: +5 = PB (2) + STR (3)
• Heavy Crossbow - Ranged Weapon Attack: +2 = PB (2) + DEX (0)

I've never seen an exception to this where an NPC didn't have proficiency included in a listed attack.

Non-spell "spell attacks like "Efreeti"'s Hurl Flame:

• Ranged Spell Attack: +7 = PB (4) + CHA (3) (CHA is stated to be it's innate spellcasting ability in TRAITS)

So I would propose:

• Melee Weapon Attack: should use PB + STR unless it's finesse, then higher of STR/DEX
• Ranged Weapon Attack: should use PB + DEX unless it's thrown, then use higher of STR/DEX
• Any Spell Attack: Use ability listed in Spellcasting Trait

I'm sure it's more complicated than I'm purporting it to be, but if this worked, it would open up some nice possibilities for automating ability score damage.

As always, sincere thanks for your time and efforts.

[Moon Wizard]

Without a definitive ruling, I'm hesitant to auto-apply anything. Even verifying that every Spell Attack follows your logic in all the bestiaries is not a small project.

This is probably a ways out anyways, given that I have some higher priority projects going right now.

Regards,
JPG

[rocketvaultgames]

Without a definitive ruling, I'm hesitant to auto-apply anything. Even verifying that every Spell Attack follows your logic in all the bestiaries is not a small project.

This is probably a ways out anyways, given that I have some higher priority projects going right now.

Regards,
JPG

The closest I could find if in the DMG Chapter 9: Creating a Monster:

Step 10. Attack Bonuses
A monster’s attack bonuses have a direct bearing on its challenge rating, and vice versa. You can determine a monster’s attack bonuses in one of two ways.

Use the Table. You can start with the monster’s expected challenge rating and use the Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating table to determine an appropriate attack bonus for all the monster’s attacks, regardless of its ability scores.

The table provides the baseline attack bonus for each challenge rating. Feel free to adjust the attack bonus as you see fit to match whatever concept you have in mind. For example, the baseline attack bonus for a challenge rating 1 monster is +3, but if your monster needs more accuracy, raise its bonus accordingly. Don’t worry if the monster’s attack bonus isn’t matching up with the expected challenge rating for the monster. Other factors can affect a monster’s challenge rating, as shown in later steps.

Calculate Attack Bonuses. Alternatively, you can calculate a monster’s attack bonuses the same way players calculate the attack bonuses of a character.

When a monster has an action that requires an attack roll, its attack bonus is equal to its proficiency bonus + its Strength or Dexterity modifier. A monster usually applies its Strength modifier to melee attacks and its Dexterity modifier to ranged attacks, although smaller monsters sometimes use Dexterity for both.


Again, don’t worry if the attack bonuses aren’t matching up with the expected challenge rating for the monster. You can always adjust a monster’s attack bonuses later.

[Nyarly Dude]

There are definitely exceptions. A standard cat, for instance; proficiency bonus +2, strength modifier -4, dexterity modifier +2; yet, the claws have +0 to hit, not -2 or +4.

Iron golems also appear to be getting an innate +1; STR +7, PB +5, yet +13 instead of +12 to hit.

[rocketvaultgames]

There are definitely exceptions. A standard cat, for instance; proficiency bonus +2, strength modifier -4, dexterity modifier +2; yet, the claws have +0 to hit, not -2 or +4.

Iron golems also appear to be getting an innate +1; STR +7, PB +5, yet +13 instead of +12 to hit.

Thank you for the examples. I stand corrected.


I wouldn't be surprised if there was an 'official' algorithm behind the scenes...

Pure speculation, but maybe there is a clause that 'attack bonuses have a minimum of 0'.

The Magic Weapons trait (of the iron golem) might contribute a +1 in certain cases (not true for a unicorn).


I still appreciate the replies and at least know that I'm not just missing something with the current implementation.

[LordEntrails]

Early on, it was made clear to me by various WotC/JC/etc statements that in 5E, NPCs are not created using the same math as PCs. Meaning that an attack or damage bonus is not necessarily a result of a ability modifier (and or proficiency bonus). i.e. PC math usually works, but it doesn't have to, nor should a DM be restrained from creating or using a creature that does not follow the PC math rules.

I know it was hard for me to break coming from previous editions where NPC math was the same as PC math. But in 5E, such rules don't exist.

I think what that means for us in FG is that instead of just applying and effect "STR:4", we can usually accomplish what is desired with a "STR:4; ATT:2, DAM:2, melee"

[rocketvaultgames]

Early on, it was made clear to me by various WotC/JC/etc statements that in 5E, NPCs are not created using the same math as PCs. Meaning that an attack or damage bonus is not necessarily a result of a ability modifier (and or proficiency bonus). i.e. PC math usually works, but it doesn't have to, nor should a DM be restrained from creating or using a creature that does not follow the PC math rules.

I know it was hard for me to break coming from previous editions where NPC math was the same as PC math. But in 5E, such rules don't exist.

I think what that means for us in FG is that instead of just applying and effect "STR:4", we can usually accomplish what is desired with a "STR:4; ATT:2, DAM:2, melee"

Yup. I was just hoping to unify both sides if possible to automate, for example... (with extensions) a sword on an NPC that does [EFF: STR: -1d4] on a hit and failed save. The PC's could kill the NPC, loot the sword, equip the sword, and it would just work as expected for them with no manual changes.

Or maybe a version of a paralyzing spell could instead of using the condition, give DEX: -4 each round or something. It's just a little more work if it's different for PCs/NPCs, but I understand that that is how 5e is designed.

This of course makes designing NPCs a breeze compared to 3e, but little benefits from symmetry are sacrificed.